Mar 2 • 48M

Apatheism, Mormonism, and Theological Shoegazing, with Kyle Beshears

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Appears in this episode

Timothy Paul Jones
Welcome to The Apologetics Podcast! In each episode of this thoughtful but lighthearted podcast, bestselling apologetics author Timothy Paul Jones joins cohost Garrick Bailey and top biblical scholars to wrestle with questions related to evidence for the truth of Christianity.
Episode details

Welcome to the Apathetic Episode of The Apologetics Podcast! An episode focused on apathy and apatheism probably seems appropriate to all of you who have noticed how apathetic Garrick and Timothy have been about releasing new episodes for the past few months. But that wasn’t actually due to anyone’s apathy! It was because Timothy needed to finish writing a new apologetics book entitled In Church as It Is in Heaven, which InterVarsity Press will release in June 2023.

Now that the book manuscript is in the publisher’s hands, the Apologetics Podcast is back and better and more apathetic than ever!

Even with this return of new episodes, the dynamic duo refuses to get excited. This is, after all, the Apathetic Episode, which requires them to remain as lethargic as possible. And so, this episode’s installment of the Raiders of Church History begins with a piece of fruit. In a moment so apathetic that it’s almost pathetic, Timothy apathetically tosses his pear at a dead head, resulting in a dull draw that makes staring at sleeping rocks seem exciting.

The apathy continues when Kyle Beshears reveals that his favorite rock group is Starflyer 59, a shoegaze band that barely qualifies as a rock band at all and happens to be the undisputed master of maudlin and apathetic music. But Starflyer 59 is far from the most apathetic aspect of this Apathetic Episode, because there is only one person in the universe more passionately committed to apathy than Garrick and Timothy, and that’s Kyle Beshears. The topic of their discussion is “apatheism,” a term that theology professor Robert Nash coined in 2001 to describe people so apathetic that they don’t care whether or not God exists. Garrick and Kyle momentarily threaten the apathy of this episode when they begin talking about Mormonism and start to become almost excited. That’s when Timothy bravely but apathetically intervenes to restore the high levels of apathy for which this episode is destined to become famous.


Timothy Paul Jones, Ph.D., is C. Edwin Gheens Professor of Christian Ministry at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He teaches in the areas of family ministry and applied apologetics. He has authored or edited more than a dozen books, including Why Should I Trust the Bible?

Garrick Bailey is a Ph.D. student in systematic theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, studying Herman Bavinck and Roman Catholicism under the supervision of Gregg Allison.


St. Augustine’s Pears (Petra, 1998)

Ya Right (Starflyer 59, 2021)

When You Feel Miserable (Starflyer 59, 1995)

Kyle Beshears

Apatheism (Kyle Beshears, 2021)

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